Dearly beloved
Greetings to you all in the precious and matchless
name our Lord Jesus Christ. We are always grateful to
our God, the father because He has blessed us
abundantly with his entire spiritual blessing in
Heavenly places in Christ Jesus. We have received a
great privilege to live as His children eternally for
the eternity. We have received a great opportunity
and blessings to serve and praise him by proclaiming
and preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ to many
people in many cities.

God has given a good opportunity to write this letter
to you in this new year of 2001.And I believe this is
the will of God to be make and enjoy the fellowship
with you in his divinely services. I am pastor
K.vijaya Raju came from a devotee Christian family.
By birth I believe in Jesus, and I am existing in the
same path. Due to my strong impulse I trained up as a
pastor. And I settled in the very noble profession
that is in Gospel Service and we have gathered a team
of committed man and women of God dedicated to reach
the millions in the vast country of India with the
Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. Our main task is to
preach and teach the word of God in all cities and
villages of India, with his compassion and
multiplication can we reach our vast country with a
population of 850 millions people.

Our burden is to concentrate at the grass route level.
Majorities of our people in India live in 600000
villages. That means we need at least one radiant
believer in every village of India. And we have had a
library, I have spent some money for purchasing the
books and put into this library for reading those who
are interesting to come. I hope that definitely they
will develop their spiritual knowledge. Still I am
praying that some more books and magazines put into
this library. I had a small congregation around 100
believers totally they laborers Just I want inform you
about my church laborers, how they are depended upon
their daily wages. The economic system is very much
complicated. There is a vast gap between rich and
poor. Rich were exploiting the poor. Daily laborers
are being paid very less. There is a difference in
the payment to male laborer and female laborer. There
will not be work all through out the year. There will
be seasonal works only.

I did not receiving any special support from any
corner. Expect the meager offerings of the local
congregation. But God has been providing our daily
bread and some times we rejoice in the Lord. Even in
our difficulties. The hand to mouth offerings are
open secret Many times we used to go to bed of starved
and our children used to move half naked. Some times
the poverty used to become a hindrance for the
effective work of the Gospel. 1cor 4:11 to 13.

Yearly once we are conducting Gospel meetings in our
church surrounding place. These Gospel meetings have
been conducted only three days. During this time many
hundreds of people coming from very long distance for
staying to hearing the word of God. But every time we
have failed to provide there needs like shelter, food.
This year also we are planning to conduct like these
meetings. If you would like to come and participate
and preach the word of God. Here hearty welcomes you
to come and enjoy during these meetings.

Presently we are doing like this programs according to
the Gods grace and his help.
But still we are waiting to do many various programs
in the Lord's work as like. We are planning to start
a small widow's home. Many widows are coming to our
church regularly. And many times they brought their
sorrowful conditions to my notice. But I told to them
to inform saints like you to get some little support.
And we are praying for these widows. We had great
zeal to start some more congregations in some new
cities that we may see the multitude number of
disciples here for our Lord.

And I explained you on the existing conditions of
orphan children in India. Here such these orphans are
increasing day by day at a rapid rate. Because of
their family disorganized conditions in the lapse of
their beloved parents, and due to the disaster
conditions of natural calamities, these orphans are
generation on geometrical progression. Here these
groups of victims called as "parking boys." , "Young
rashvels", as "poison". Generally parking boys shall
pass on their time at public places, like bus stops,
railway stations and at some enterprises centers like
petrol bunks. They struggled entire day for their
owners, where they are accustomed with insufficient
food. The young rashvels shall wonder on stress where
they are starring for days in a week. The poison
shall work in the fields of the landlords. But they
are existing with quite
Discontent towards their Diane needs, With such
background these helpless buds are becoming as
habitual criminals. As a mater of fact nowadays in
India these victims are becoming as powerful criminals
and anti social elements. Lack of proper family
treatment, and at the dissatisfied conditions 0f their
dairy needs, they are mounding like this. Of course
it is one of the contemporary problem of our society.
On seeing the practical conditions of them every human
being shall feel sympathy at them. For sometimes
these orphan children are competing with dogs at the
dustbins. During the feasts of wealthy people. Here
on our territory every person shall glance of his or
her bitter and panic conditions, but nobody shall come
forward to host them. It is the most disgraceful
feature on the humanity in this world. Now computers
and high technologies are developed are satisfactory
ways, but no pity is coming from this sophisticated
society towards these helpless victims. Really I
pitted much on their existed conditions, and I
proposed and planned to start an orphanage for the
upliftment of the such helpless children according to
the scripture James 1:27.

These are our goals to accomplish in the future by
God's help and through the cooperation you. Truly we
have dedicated our lives to achieve these goals. We
are always trying to live and present a pure
sacrificial service for our Lord. We are doing this
services very sincerely diligently and faithful beyond
our ability. We trust that our God the Father knows
our intention and great zeal about our goals of
winning souls and promoting the Lord's work. As Paul
said "therefore knowing the fear of the Lord; we
persuade men, but we are made manifest to God and I
hope that we are made manifest in our conscience. I
am not again commanding our selves to you may have an
answer for those who take pride. In appearance, and
not in heart. "2cor 5:11,12. As it is written we are
doing his services being just are living very
faithfully as his children.
Brother, I want to share in your services to work in
our country for our Lord. I will submissive to
reasonable suggestions and instructions in any
aspects. Please go through this letter and kindly
understand the spirit of this letter, and please
understand also our zeal and anxiety towards the
Lord's work here. Convey our love to all saints there.
Waiting eagerly for you're favorably reply.
Yours in His Bonds.
Address:
Pastor K.Vijaya Raju,
Allamudi Post,
Bhattiprolu Mandal,
Guntur (DT).A.P.South India
Email: vijaya_rajuk@usa.net
Web:http://orphanage.org/asia/india/nataji

----- Original Message -----
From: "Doug Ittner"
To: ministry@telusplanet.net
Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2001 10:23 AM
Subject: Unsubscribe
Why you think an Atheist would want to read a gospel ezine is beyond me.
Please unsubscribe me from your list.
Doug Ittner
State Director
American Atheists

From: "Black-top" <ministry@telusplanet.net>
To: "Doug Ittner"
Subject: Re: Unsubscribe
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 17:35:24 -0600
Dear Doug,
We think that an atheist might like to read a Christian e-maga-zine for the same reason that a Christian would read an atheist magazine. The www is the information hiway and we believe most people are open to ideas different than their own. Because it is from ideas different than our own that we learn new concepts and ways of thinking. If you have an online emagazine we would be happy to recieve it. Please place us on your mailing list. However we have removed your name from our list. Thank you

original Message -----
From: "Doug Ittner"
To: <ministry@telusplanet.net>
Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2001 12:02 AM
Subject: Re: Unsubscribe
I think you would have heeded your messiah's advice to not cast pearls before swine. But nevertheless I do get my share of godsalesmen presentingtheir viewpoints in one manner or another (television, radio,newspaper,knocks on the door, pamplets under my windshield wiper, vandalism, at work, etc.), however the sign on the door proclaims "No Solicitation" and the door will remain closed on any further attempts to sell your spiritual vacuum cleaner.
Doug Ittner

From: "Black-top" <ministry@telusplanet.net>


To: "Doug Ittner"
Subject: Re: Unsubscribe
Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 00:32:30 -0600
Dear Doug ,

We do hear and heed our Messiah's advice. However we do not consider either you or any non-believer to be swine. If at anytime you should decide that just maybe you would have a change of heart , we will be available so please save our address. As for God's salesmen we also are challenged with the atheist point of view, in our public schools ,radio, tv, the daily press and all the other papers and magazines and even on the internet hiway.However we feel that this is a good thing., because true Christian Faith cannot be overcome by mere human mental musings and their struggles to
find self worth.
Love in Christ
James and Loretta
P S You are unsubscribed

----- Original Message -----
From: "Doug Ittner"
To: <ministry@telusplanet.net>
Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2001 8:54 AM
Subject: Re: Unsubscribe
I am curious if you could present some examples of Atheism being taught in schools, Atheist radio stations, Atheists television channels and shows,or sections of the newspaper devoted to Atheism. Having been in journalismfor a few years this comes as in interesting surprise.

Doug Ittner
State Director
American Atheists

From: James and Loretta Sent: 28/04/2001 9:33 PM 1 of 3
Dear Doug,
Glad to hear from you.
You asked for examples of Atheism being taught in schools. The theory of evolution is most certainly believed by Atheists. It is taught in schools,so-called science shows programs on public t v inter-spaced throughout public programming. The evolutionary theory is for the most part the religion of Atheists. The elimination of Christian education in the public school system along with the religious education even other religions being removed from the public school system, is a denial that there is a God. Atheism unlike Christianity is interwoven throughout our educational, public media, and to a great extent throughout our society.Christianity is for the most part confined to paid for programming on publict v. It requires only changing channels on your t v to eliminate having tobe exposed to it. As for the private Christian broadcasting networks itrequires simply not tuning into their stations. Whereas we as Christians areconstantly from the time we begin school are exposed to the evolutionary theory. We as Christians believe and support free speech. We also believe in the superiority of human thought therefore lets have the Athesitic theory ofevolution taught along side the Christian truth of creation in our public schools on our public t v networks. And let the children of the world make educated informed decisions on what they choose to believe. Lets not take and preach a God denying theory to a captive trusting audience, the youth of North America and Europe. Throughout public t v Christianity and Christians are put down, made to look foolish, if this same kind of thought processwere used against African Americans, Native Americans, Women, there would be a public outcry the like of which was never heard. The public t v show Angels Among Us was almost taking off the air because God was mentioned to many times and only remained because of a change in programming. On the other hand evolution along with its denial of there being a God is paid for by the public including Christians against their will. We have in the past seen the results of Athesistic governments, communism throughout the world their presses, public broadcasting, was and is a promotion of Atheism. Whenever we
deny that something is preformed by God if He in fact preformed it then we deny that there is a God. So to end this note I feel that there is a far greater promotion of Atheism than Christianity.
Sincerely
James and Loretta Friesen
The Way Ministries

----- Original Message -----
From: "Doug Ittner"
To: ministry@telusplanet.net
Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2001 8:07 AM
Subject: Re: Unsubscribe
Perhaps I can expose the utter ignorance of your beliefs. Science does
not equate Atheism. Scientific studies do not include the explanation of God
simply because God is not testable therefore to conclude that evolution provides a naturalistic explanation is simply because that is all that the data provides. Under your belief system the Theory of Gravity is an Atheist philosophy because it does not include God. You are ignoring the fact that the majority of Christians accept evolution as a plausible explanation for the methods your gods use to develop life. When you drop a pencil does itfall as a result of gravity or is it a result of God using his hand to push it to the ground? In other words Atheism is not being taught in the school unlike the prevelance of bible reading in literature classes and, oddly
enough, I just received a call from a public school teacher to complain to me that a Christian presentation is being held that all students are required to attend. Christian televisions shows are not regulated to public access. On every network station there are Christian television shows, more abundant on the weekends but also early morning. The Dr. Laura show, the 700 Club and Touched by An Angel (prime time viewing) are some of the most common.There is the reoccurring Billy Graham Crusade and numerous Christmas specials.Recently during Easter there was a plethora of Jesus related broadcasts including a claymation Jesus movie. There are entire cable networks devoted to the Christian religion including CBN, TBN and the Catholic's channel. On the other hand I have yet to hear from you an Atheist television show on an Atheist channel.
You remark about Atheist government such as the Communist government. I
am supposing you are also including the godless American government which
also has the separation of state and church in its founding documents and
doesn't recognize an official religion. What could be more Atheistic than a
nation that doesn't require a religious test for its public officials and bars
the advancement of any religion? Perhaps you are feeling a little oppressed
in your Atheistic country that also happens to be one of the most religious industrialized nations.
I asked a simple question and you come back with Christian propaganda. I
am well aware of your viewpoints, I have encountered such ignorance and
bigotry numerous times. You have proven to me that you have nothing to offer
except the same lies that have been repeated to me numerous times. If you
sincerely want to be educated about Atheism then I suggest you remove your
Bible blinders and take a skeptical look at what you have been told throughout your life. However if you feel it necessary to continue with this persecution complex then there is no need for me to "throw pearls before swine" as your Christ says.

Doug Ittner
State Director
American Atheists


From: James and Loretta Sent: 28/04/2001 9:39 PM 2 of 3
Dear Doug
As you said you wanted to expose the utter ignorance of my beliefs. Lets
deal with the wrong conceptions on your part.
1) Evolution is not science. Ingersol one of the greater promoters of the
evolutionary theory was raised a Christian. Because of some so-called
Christian doctrine he left the nominal Christian faith and became an
Atheist. "Saying even if there was such a God I would not want anything to
do with Him". He became if not the founder then at least one of the greatest
proponents of evolution. Science deals with cause and effect. Evolution
deals with beginning, therefore evolution is religion that is without God.
Your second statement: You said, "Science does not equate Atheism. I totally
agree. Science does not in any way refutiate the Bible. In fact science
reinforces the Bible. There are a great many Christian Scientists as well as
Atheist Scientists. However there are no Christian scientists that believe in
evolution. Evolution we will state again is not science, but rather a
system of conjectures, theories, what ifs, if this happened then this may
well have happened.
Your third statement: is "Scientific studies do not include the explanation
of God, simply because God is not testable. This is a true statement. But
then neither do scientific studies prove that there is no God. So you see
when we take things at only their face value we are exactly where we
started. I would be interested in any scientific research that is in
contradiction of the Bible. From all of my scientific reading and studying I
see science stand with a pointing finger to God. Remember evolution is not
science. Evolution does not provide a naturalistic explanation of anything.
There is the problem of the missing links among many other problems.
4) You say that under my system of beliefs, gravity is an Atheist
phylosophy, because it does not include God. However if we are to get
scientific, lets look at the scientific concept, WHERE THERE IS LAW THERE
MUST BE A LAW-GIVER. GRAVITY IS A NATURAL LAW, therefore gravity as part of the laws of the universe tells me that there is a God. This whole idea of
the universe without A God, is to make it simple is as ridiculous as if I
were to show you a coke can and tell you that no one had designed it but
that it just appeared from some tin ore that was mixed in with the ground it
was laying on. On the other hand take a banana, you open it with a neat
little pull-tab it is neatly packaged in a non-slip package perfectly shaped
for eating. Much superior in design to the coke can, you would have me
believe that this banana appeared without an intelligent designer? Does this
really answer to human reason? However you are willing to believe that the
universe hundreds and millions of light years oceans, flowers, plants
animals, all governed by laws and orderly, suddenly appeared without
design. This defies human reason, and science. You also are misinformed on the
idea that the majority of Christians accept evolution as a plausible
explanation for the methods God used for creation. There are a few that have
compromised the Christian position on creation. There are more that would go
along with evolution to the point of fixation of species. However the vast
majority of Christians hold to the Biblical view that God created each
species separately " and they brought forth after their own kind". And no
Christian accepts the theory of evolution in regards to man. As for the
Bible being read in literature class so is Shakespear, Dickens, and many
fine writers. To equate the reading of fine literature with Christianity is
just taking being a skeptic to far.
I do not believe that anyone Atheist or otherwise would deny that the Bible
is a fine piece of literature. It seems to me that if as you say Atheist
literature is not being read in school literature class is a result of a
lack of talented Atheistic people able to write fine literature. I am unable to
connect the link between Christianity and the reading of the Bible as
literature. If I read Shakespear, in literature class in school am I then
promoting the religion of Shakespear? As for a Christian presentation being
presented in school, and everyone being required to attend, my comeback to
that is Why do not Atheists have a like presentation? If you were, tell me
that the school would not allow such a presentation, I think that I would be
forced to call your bluff and organize a like presentation from an Atheist
point of view.
As for Christian t v shows on every network I agree. On every network there
are coke advertisements paid for by coke inc, Christian shows are paid for
by Christian people. The way to overcome this problem is for Atheists to put
on shows and pay for the air-time just as Christians do. Is there a lack of
talent among Atheists? Or is it just that Atheists do not believe strongly
enough in what they teach to put their money where their mouth is. There is
freedom of speech in America. There is no lack of people in the national
press, radio, t v, papers, willing to take your money to allow you to
exercise your freedom of speech. If you really believe what you teach then
get up off your posterior and spread the news. Do you print an Atheist
newsletter? Please place me on your mailing list. If you have an Atheist t v
or radio show please send me the call letters. If you don't have any of
these WHY NOT? It seems to me that the sluggard is always complaining
because the people who work have something. We Christians believe and put
our money where our mouth is, therefore leading us to believe that you do not
TRULY believe what you say. You said I believe that you were involved in
journalism for a few years, therefore you should have some idea about
advertising and spreading your ideas, and are probably more qualified to do
so than most Christians that are DOING it. IT is true I do not know of any
purely Athesitic t v shows, networks, or any media. However, I do not feel
that is the fault of the press nor of Christians, but rather the fault of
the Atheist, because either they are sitting on their hands hollering for
the public to pay for the spread of the gospel according to Atheism or
they don't TRULY believe what they teach. You supposed that I was including
the Godless American government along with the Atheist communist government,
because they believed in separation of Church and State. Well for one thing
to suppose something makes a fool out of both you and me. For you to make
such a statement shows me that your skepticism has in fact blinded your
eyes. You began your letter saying, "I was in utter ignorance". However you
most certainly have not studied a very important part of the Christian
faith. We as Anabaptists, probably more familiar to you as Mennonites, we
are neither Catholic nor Protestant, have long before there was an America
give our lives and were burnt at the stake, driven from country to country,
thousands of us dying for precisely the idea of Separation of Church and
State. It really irks me when someone in your position pretends and supposes
that they know what they are talking about, when in fact they know nothing,
because they became skeptics before they decided to look at ALL angles. When
you suppose that someone believes something that they do not believe nor
have any of my people believed in state religion for six hundred years, I
really do think that you should look into ( STUDY) what you are opposing
before you take a stand and put things into peoples mouths that their
ancestors gave their lives for.
From the above, it should be clear that over two million Christians
world-wide have for the last six hundred years, been opposed to the point of
death, to the idea that Church should be involved in government. We very
strongly believe in SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE. Therefore the American Government is absolutely correct in it's stand. I really do feel that you
need to STUDY some early American History you will see that William Penn the
Pilgrims were, infact, Christians who were strongly opposed to European Church
State Government and this Christian stand was carried over and became a
strong influence in the formulation of the American Constitution.
You said, "you were well aware of my view points". However youre above
supposition points out a very different fact that you are totally unaware of
my view points. As for my Christian propaganda I really don't see that I
presented previously any propaganda. I stated no Christian belief nor did I
make a supposition as to what you say you believe. Nor did I revert to name
calling. I doubt very much if you were asked, could explain what a Christian
is. You seem to have two terms, very much confused. The term Christian and
the term Religion. The religious person is very much LIKE the Atheist,
however there is another belief system that is much closer to reality that
is the AGNOSTIC, the religious person says "there is a God" the Atheist
says "there is no God" both dogmatic and unscientific terms, on the other
hand the Agnostic says " We can't know if there is a God". The Agnostic is
absolutely correct, we as human beings cannot know that there is a God. The
Bible teaches us that there is a God. All the universe, creation points a
pointing finger to God but it neither can nor does prove beyond doubt that
there is a God. In order to KNOW God we MUST transcend the human and move
beyond the material. The Christian point of view is that we know there is
a God, just as we know that we have a neighbor because we have a
relationship with our neighbor. We know we have a wife, children grandchildren, pets, etc. because we have relationships. We know that there is a God because we have a relationship with Him. Because someone calls them self a Christian or because someone else calls them a Christian it does not make them Christian. Christianity is relationship.
Sincerely
James and Loretta Friesen
The Way Ministries.

----- Original Message -----

From: "Doug Ittner"

To: ministry@telusplanet.net

Sent: Friday, April 20, 2001 12:26 PM

Subject: Re: Unsubscribe

Evolution doesn't deal with beginnings, it deals with change. Evolution
occurs during the reproduction process, if you want to deal with beginnings
that is abiogenesis which isn't a part of evolutionary theory. Obviously
Atheists accept the evolutionary explanation because there hasn't been
presented any scientific alternatives and they certainly won't accept
supernatural, non-scientific explanations. But simply concluding evolution
is Atheism because Atheists accept evolution is illogical. The Catholic
Church accepts evolution and teaches it in their schools. Other Christian
denominations such as the United Methodist, Lutheran, Unitarian and the
Episcopal Church accepts the reality of evolution. It is just a minority of Christians who reject evolution for purely emotional reasons. Of course no
scientific study can conclude that there isn't a god since it isn't testable, that is why evolution can't be considered an exponent of Atheism. But in order for you to hold such a view you would have to generalize that all science advocates Atheism simply for the fact that an untestable variable isn't incorporated into the theory.
I would disagree about your statement that science reinforces the Bible. I
could simply point to Isaiah 40:22 that describes the Earth as a circle (the
Hebrews had words for sphere so it is clear that they believed the Earth was
flat) so I would have to conclude that those who accept a spherical Earth
are advocating Atheism. Let's also bring up Galileo who was threatened with
execution if he didn't accept the Biblical concept of geocentrism. I have
compiled a short list of scientific errors in the Bible on my personal page:
http://www.geocities.com/fsddi1/sadscience.html
Your notion of, "If there are laws there must be a law-giver" is
unsupported. It is essentially the illogical argument from ignorance.
Since a part of nature is unexplained you reach the conclusion that there
must be a god. This is not evidence for a god but simply evidence that we
don't know everything therefore a false conclusion is reached. Your gods
only serve as an explanation for gaps in our knowledge so it can't be
concluded that a god exists as a result, and it certainly can't be concluded
that it is your god that exists to fill in those gaps. The recognition of patterns isn't evidence for a god, the overgeneralization of designed products isn't evidence for a god. But let's examine your analogy, a can is found on the beach so organic beings must have been created like the can. So how do we conclude, based on that analogy who these designers are. Well first raw materials must be mined. These raw materials weren't created (oops, that means matter existed before the
designer so it wasn't necessarily the creator but could have been a product
of evolution as well as abiogenesis). The act of mining and refining takes
the employment and effort of hundreds of people, in this case gods. These
materials are then shipped (more gods necessary) to a factory where they are
made into their finished product (again hundreds of more gods to make the
finished product and the facilities to make the finished product). Then the
product is marketed and distributed throughout the land (even more gods,
perhaps millions) when eventually it reaches its final destination. So you
don't have just one God but a multitude of thousands or millions of gods.
Comparing your analogy doesn't make sense and I must add that such cliches
are getting quite tiresome, I wish apologists would come up with something
more substantial. Putting an Atheist program on the air isn't as simple as it is for the Christian. An Atheist radio program was attempted in the early 20th century
but it was forced off the air due to public protest despite the fact that the show was tastefully done. During the Comstock era it was illegal to mail Atheist material. During the era of McCarthyism Atheists were arrested as suspected Communists, many were blacklisted as well so they couldn't produce any Atheist programming. When Madalyn started her radio program she was forced by FCC regulations to not advocate the Atheist position but she was allowed to read historical works so she could never present her views on Atheism, Christians weren't under any such restrictions. To get on television Atheists have to compete against networks owned by religious people and have to justify that there is a market share for their program. So any shows on television are restricted to public access. Of course if
Christians weren't under such restrictions they'd cry religious persecution, but when it is Atheists under the thumb it is considered necessary for public order and to prevent people from getting offended (however when Christians on the media advocate the slaughter of unbelievers it is considered a religious freedom). It is pretty simple for you Christians to just say, "Well, put your show on the air." You might as well tell a freed slave, "Now you are free, get a job and start your own corporaton if you don't like discrimination." But since you stated that there are Atheist programs, and couldn't present any I will take that as just the prior utterance of Christian propaganda.How is it that you would have expected me to research the fact that you are an anabaptist if you failed to present that fact? Anyway, that really doesn't have to do with your statment on Atheistic governments. Roger Williams was one of the few Puritains who actually advocated a godless government but his Puritain community from which he was banned did not advocate the separation of state and church, they demanded that only those with their beliefs be in government. The colonies were rampant with religious discrimination, including William Penn's who excluded non-Christians and Atheists from holding public office or voting. Fortunatly the religious bigotry of the colonies was eliminated with the founding of America and its godless Constitution based upon the philosophy of John Locke. I certainly hope you learned something from this discussion and move away from the religious-based hatred against Atheists.



From: James and Loretta Sent: 28/04/2001 9:42 PM 3 of 3
Dear Doug

Sorry my reply took so long However, I got tied up with some other thing, and I could not decide which to reply to first the email or your you web page. you will recieve a reply to your page latter. You are right that it is abiogenisis that deals with beginnings to be exact it deals with the origination of life from lifeless matter, the point where the theory of evolution begins. We have arrived at two points of argeement 1) That God can't be proven or disproven by science.2) that evolution is not science. Lets deal with the first point. If God cannot be proven or disproven by science then the further discussion of science in reference to God is pointless and valueless. To deal with the second point, you said that Atheists only accept scientific explanations therefore evolution should have no more value to the Atheist than does creation. They should be of equal value. To further deal with this point, if evolution as you agreed maybe I will quote your exact phrase from the letter below so that you will understand how I have arrived at the idea that you agree that evolution is not science. Here is your quote "Obviously Atheists accept the evolutionary explanation because there hasn't been presented any scientific alternatives and they certainly won't accept supernatural, non-scientific explanations". As you have admitted that evolution is not scientific, it appears that it was a choice on the part of Atheists to accept evolution with all its missing links, gaps in theory without scientific backup, therefore evolution is accepted with a great deal more faith and emotion on the part of the Atheist than creation is on the part of the Christian.

Evolution not proven by science, not disproven by science, therefore accepted by faith.

Creation not proven by science, not disproven by science, therefore accepted by faith.

As for evolution not being Atheist there seems to be one point that you overlook, and that is the establishment in the minds of people a thought process. The evolutionary theory establishes a thought process of creation without a Creator, laws without a lawgiver, life without a life giver, contrary to all nature. For a better argument look at your own argument on your web site dealing with the virgin birth of Yeshua ie you say that Yeshua could not have been supernaturally conceived he must have had a human father. You therefore establish that all things must be according to the normal natural pattern. We see nowhere evidence of slew-scum bringing forth anything but slew-scum. We do not see rocks bringing forth-living rocks. We nowhere see nor do we have any natural living proof of an evolutionary process. As for the Catholic Church accepting evolution and teaching it in their schools is not evidence of Christian standpoint. Take a look at the Inquisition there is nothing Christian about it. We are not nor are we prepared to have a discussion on the belief of other Churches. However present discussion deals with Atheism vs God and Christianity. Your term Christian covers a far greater area than any Christian would allow. You include the unitarian religion in Christianity. We believe you would have a very hard time finding any other denomination that would accept unitarianism as Christian. We choose to differ on the idea that it is a minority of Christians that do not accept evolution. Because someone or organization makes a statement that it believes in God, no more makes it Christian than saying I believe in evolution makes you an Atheist.

You quote Isaiah 40 v 22 as some kind of proof that the Bible is in contradiction of science. However the problem is not with the Biblical statement but rather with your inability to grasp the context of the verse. The chapter, Isaiah 40 is dealing with God's favor returning to Israel and then deals with the awesomeness, the wonder, the greatness of God in comparison to mankind and the idols that they worship. To take and apply some scientific principle to verse 22 and claiming that the Bible does not agree with science because it says the circle of the earth, you then say that it means the earth is not round but flat. The Bible in Isaiah 40 v 22 is not making any statement as to the shape of the earth. It is simply viewing it as seen through the eyes of man. Your application is as foolish as if a great scientist were to write a book and say "We packed camp that morning when the sun rose, and it took till sunset to reach our final camp". Now with your line of reasoning we would have to throw out his whole book, because it does not agree with science. The sun does not rise and set, the passage in Isaiah is not making any more of a scientific statement than someone using the phrase sunrise or sunset.

You state that because part of nature is unexplained that we conclude that there must be a God to fill the gaps. That is a false conception. It is the scientifically proven part of nature that tells us there is a God. Once again the Bible is in total agreement with science, (remember we both agree that evolution is not science.)

As for my analogy of the coke can, you missed the point, and in doing so, made an even stronger point as you pointed out the millions of people involved in the making of the coke can, my point was only that you would refuse to believe that a coke can appeared without a designer, but have no trouble believing that a far greater design the banana appeared out of nothing without a designer. That cannot answer to human reason. I feel that its not the cliches that upset you, but rather that these clichés point out some error in your thought process.

As for Atheists not being able to obtain air-time in the U.S.A. I feel that if you were to approach a Canadian Broadcasting Company, you may feel differently. Christian broadcasting in Canada does not come without a great deal of haggling with the C R T C. And to have a religious network requires that programming include all religions. I am sure that if Atheists were to approach Discovery Channel, they might be pleased with the result. You also mention that Atheists would be required to prove market share. Well so are Christians, Religious Broadcasters. However if you are unable to prove market share that only proves that Atheists are in the extreme minority.

As for the persecution of Atheists under McCarthyism that was a witch-hunt just like the witch-hunts of the Puritans. There were many other people used unfairly by the McCarthy Regime. I can assure you that here in Canada communism has always had freedom and over the last 60 years there has been a communist party even members from time to time in Parliament.

Seeing that we cannot prove that there is a God by science, nor can we prove there is not a God through science, lets take a look at the reality of human and political condition.

1) That from the earliest records of man we have his belief in God in one form or another.

2) That even in our age of so-called enlightenment (thats disputable) the belief in God remains very strong. 80% of Americans still believe in God

3) That in order to maintain a functioning society there must be some morality and authority higher than man's otherwise human life becomes of no value and every man decides what is right in his own eyes resulting in chaos and anarchism.

4) With prayer and Bible reading being removed from the schools we have replaced them with the knife and the gun.

5) As the Christian practice became less and less of a stabilizing factor in America the streets became a jungle. Prayer, Bible Study, love of neighbor were replaced with locks, guns, and knives. America is fast running out of prison space.

6) Because more than just believing there is a God is required, we have replaced this inward need to have spiritual fellowship with drugs, and alcohol.

7) The Eastern religions are growing in America at an even faster rate than Christianity. Yet Atheism remains such a small part of human belief that it is simply a reflection of the idea is, a few are right, 90% of humanity is wrong.

8) Government without God has been tried throughout history. Most recently in the U.S.S.R. and Eastern Europe some Asian countries and Cuba, Chile however those that have not fallen are in process of major change.

9) We see the government and nation of the U.S.A. with its somewhat Godly form of government however also declining as it renounces it's God-ward stand, nevertheless, still the greatest most powerful with the highest standard of living of any nation on earth.

10) The Bible presupposes correctly that man will worship, and man does worship. The Atheist worships science, The Christian and the Jew, Yahweh, the drug addict his drugs, the Catholic their idols, a non-Christian most likely his car or mansion on the hill, the rich their money, etc. Worship cannot be removed from the human mind. There is proof of God. Indisputable, irrefutable, undeniable proof.

11) God, if He does not exist, it is absolutely ridiculous to say or to try to put an effort into proving his non-existance on the part of the Atheist and other forms of so-called science to prove that there is no God simply has the opposite effect of reinforcing his existence. Something that does not exist is simply ignored, like if you were to tell an Eskimo on Baffin Island that there was an elephant in his Igloo, how much time and money, effort, do you think he would spend trying to disprove that there is not an elephant in his Igloo?

12) All government for the most part is Godless. However they sometimes do use godly and Christian principles to enforce their political agenda.

13) Christianity as taught in the Bible and practiced by true Christians throughout history is not nor ever has it been a political movement. to quote Yeshua, " My kingdom is not of this world". To quote Yeshua once again when speaking to the Disciples said, " You are not of this world even as I am not of this world". We of Mennonite faith as opposed to all other faiths have since 1200 A.D. neither bore weapons in armed conflict nor offered resistance when persecuted nor have we voted or taken part in governments of this world because we belong and are a part of the Kingdom of Yeshua.

14) We and maybe this is suggestion for Atheists have always and still do maintain our own school and educational system. This was not always easy there were many disagreements with governments in both the U.S.A. and even a longer harder process in Canada. In the process of establishing our right to educate our own children and be free to maintain our stance (love your enemy) of conscientious objection to military service, many thousands of our people packed up all of their earthly belongings and moved to countries where we could practice these principles.

15) Christianity began with thirteen men in approximately 29 A.D. within 500 years inspite of severe persecution and accusation of being Atheists thats what Christians were put on trial for in the Pagan Roman Empire. Christianity became the dominant force throughout western civilization and continues inspite of the objections against it to be the dominant religion of western civilization. Does not this speak of some greater force than just human.

16) On the other hand Atheism has never except for very short periods like in the U.S.S.R. been a dominant force, nor can it be, because of the built-in human notion that there is more out there than what the eye can see.

17) The most positive proof of God is the vast change in humans as they come in contact with Him. Throughout human history whenever man comes in contact with God there is positive change. The thief suddenly gives, the one that hates suddenly loves, the person without hope suddenly has hope, the druggy or alcoholic are delivered from their addictions,

18) The hope of Atheism cannot extend beyond the few short years on this planet. The hope of the Christian is transcending and eternal. The few short years on planet earth are of minimal consideration. It is a real sorrow to us to think that someone could be so narrow minded that this life even though a blessing from God is all there is.

We can assure you that we do not hate Atheists. That we feel sorry for you and wish that you could come to appreciate the love and peace that comes with knowing God, we freely admit Atheists are humans made in God's image and God loves them even as He does all people. Nevertheless, our disagreement with your beliefs in no way constitutes hatred. We wish you all the best and we encourage you to have an open mind and although we do not support your beliefs we continue to pray that you will be allowed to live in a country in which you can express your beliefs. We also believe that it is your God given right to exercise the free-will He has give you.

Love from

The Way Ministries.

James and Loretta Friesen

------ Original Message-------

From "Doug Ittner"

I'm sorry, your ignorance knows no bounds and there is little point discussing anything with someone who goes out of their way to deny knowledge. I never said evolution was not science, if you find it necessary to pervert my position and enhance yours with lies I am given another reason to end discussion with you. I can go to the library and search through volumes of scientific research validating the fact of evolution. For you to simply dismiss reality and declare there is no evidence for evolution (as well as stating lies that abiogenesis is evolution, evolution deals with beginning and rocks don't evolve from rocks) means you have never studied the issue and I don't care to indulge your ignorance by giving you college courses over e-mail.

There is no evidence for a designer. Your attempts to use analogy of finished non-organic products and generalize that to organic lifeforms which originated naturally is a false analogy. There is no way you will provide evidence for your designer or no causal relationship between our existence and the existence of a designer.

You say Isiah 40:22 is out of context, that is true when we take into account the context that you wish it to be. Basic geometry tells us a circle is not a sphere and a circle is a two-dimensional figure. If you want to know the verse in context then you can refer to other passages in your bible that allude to the Earth being covered by a polished copper dome (only possible on a flat Earth), holes being opened up in the dome to allow for snow, rain, etc. You can refer back to the Talmud and the Hebrew Torah for further understanding. But it is out of context when you intend the context to support establish facts rather than what was believed by the people during the time of authorship.

You claim it is scientifically proven that there is a god. Let me quote what you said, "You state that because part of nature is unexplained that we conclude that there must be a God to fill the gaps. That is a false conception. It is the scientifically proven part of nature that tells us there is a God. Once again the Bible is in total agreement with science,
(remember we both agree that evolution is not science.)" This statement of
yours is completely meaningless without the scientific facts to back it up.
Not only are you contradicting your previous statement but you are stating a flat out lie which is quite typical of creationists who must rely on such tactics of lies, distortions, false logic and pseudoscience to fulfill the preconceived conclusions in their attempt to take their superstitious texts
up to the level of objective, empirically testable science.

The Discovery Channel is not an Atheist program, it is a science program.
Again what I have said fell on deaf ears, science is not Atheism. I feel as if I am talking to a child.

I am personally sick of your propaganda. You list 14 items which you claim are evidence for your god. All 14 are nothing but emotional appeals. It is tiresome pointing out all your lies. Number one is not evidence for a god. Number two, majority vote does not determine facts. Number three is nothing more than an insult and an appeal to emotions. Number four is a blatent lie. Number five is a damn blatent lie. Number six is another continuation of a lie. In fact there is no need for me to discuss any further since it is purely your intention to lie which must make you proud that your religious beliefs enable you to sink to such depths. Personally I am sick of you and think you are nothing but a criminal element in society.
Consider yourself a member of my blocked list as I have nothing more to say to such a deviant as yourself whose sole purpose in life appears to be hate especially towards Atheists no matter how many lies you would like to vomit
to the contrary.
Doug Ittner
State Director
American Atheists

We will conclude this debate with our Atheist friend with the following poem that we received via email from Dr. Srilal Perera teamco@slt.lk

NATURE'S WONDERLAND
"For all our vaunted cleverness we cannot understand
The beauty and the mystery of Nature's wonderland
The sun, the moon, the whirling stars, the sky, the earth
All the many miracles of life and death and birth"

"Man with marvellous machines can do stupendous things
But could not with his hands create a bird with voice and wings
Could not make a rose, a rainbow, or a common weed
A chrysalis, a dragonfly, a cabbage or a seed"

"Cannot say what magic holds the planet in its place
Or how the spider spins its dainty web of fairy lace
He cannot make a blade of grass, a leaf, a cone, a pod
Yet man is too arrogant to give the praise to God"

We invite comments and debates and prayer requests from all of our readers

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In His Service,
Stacey Lunsford
Arise & Shine For Jesus Ministry
~ A Titus 2 Hospice For Women ~